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Author
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Topic: Tail docking
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Tazzer
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posted February 03, 2004 11:02 AM
Can anyone tell me and how I can dock the tails of my jack russell puppies (4 days old)myself?
Posts: 3 | From: Canada | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dawn
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posted February 03, 2004 11:10 AM
Your contribution should be placing them in the car, taking them to the vet, paying the bill, and making sure they're kept clean. If you can't do that, leave their tails alone.
Posts: 428 | Registered: Nov 2002
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GretaJack
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posted February 04, 2004 04:49 AM
I agree with Dawn 100%. This is for the experts only. WOW is all I can say
Posts: 195 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Dec 2003
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lou3
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posted February 04, 2004 05:16 AM
its illegal to dock puppies yourself and its also illegal to dock them at over four days old (totally illegal here in the uk). Sounds like you've missed your window and your dogs will not be subjected to this cruel mutilation. Thankfully.
Lou
Posts: 461 | From: uk | Registered: Nov 2003
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Tazzer
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posted February 10, 2004 11:29 AM
Since posting my question about tail docking I have successfully and easily docked my puppies' tails by wrapping them with orthodontic elastics. They came off cleanly, 2 days later, no blood, no stitches, no anaestetic, and the puppies didn't even wimper. One stayed asleep and the others went to nurse. Apparently not traumatic!
Posts: 3 | From: Canada | Registered: Feb 2004
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ellierat
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posted February 10, 2004 04:53 PM
still illegal, and very controversial, can you honestly say not painfull though!!!
would'nt cut my babies little finger off at 4 days without anaesethic, would you?
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I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
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kiwi
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posted February 11, 2004 11:06 AM
One question - why?
Posts: 14 | Registered: Feb 2004
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goombaya
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posted February 11, 2004 03:45 PM
I'm unaware of a 4 day tail docking law in the US.
I can think of several reasons WHY to do it. One is that it is in the written standard of many breeds. Another is that in some working or hunting breeds the full length tail hinders function. Also damage to the full length tail is common when actually performing its function, posing a far greater health risk than the docking would.
Im not a big fan of ear cropping, so I chose breeds that dont require it in the standard. I have always thought of tail docking as relatively harmless, painless, and for functional dogs far more advantageous than not doing it.
Just my opinion.. it is a very contraversial subject. I do appreciate the views of those that are against it.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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ellierat
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posted February 11, 2004 03:55 PM
It was started for purely cosmetic reasons with certain breeds, it is still required here for the breed standard, but it must be performed by a vet, of late there has been many articles in our clubs' magazines to have this practice abandoned altogether.
As for a working purpose, I can see no reason why it should be removed, only in the sense as we do here for our sheep, they get "fly blown".
As for painless and harmless, well I have seen tails docked, horn buds burnt, etc. etc., the smell, the cries, in every case, turn my stomach!!
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I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
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goombaya
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posted February 11, 2004 04:14 PM
A bird dog that wags its tail would scare off birds... A bird dog that is extremely active in the brush could strip its tail down to a bloody stump in thick cover.
Many times breeds were/are used for purposes that the appendages are removed for its own safety.. many terriers come to mind as do the fighting breeds (not saying this is acceptable today)..
Obviously many dogs have lost the original function, and in many cases it is purely cosmetic... but many breed traits go back to some original function. If you ignore the traits of a breed, or the standard of a breed , than you abandon the fancy altogether.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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ellierat
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posted February 11, 2004 09:28 PM
I think the main sense of this topic has not actually been the to's and fro's of the actual proceedure, but more so doing it without anaesethetic, which I think has been a big no, judging by the general consensus in this forum.
I only hope that she keeps an eye on those little pups tails, and if they happen to get infected, she pays the money to take them to the vets. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
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mojo
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posted February 12, 2004 10:35 AM
im sorry but has anyone witnessed the procedures that a bull goes through when a farmer castrates it. they pen the bull, throw it to the ground and apply a thick super tight rubber band around its sack and the bull has to carry it for a couple days befor the testicles fall of. i have seen this done first hand(not tv).they also do this with absolutly no pain killers of any sort and it is also preformed no mater how old the bull is. so even though i havent yet docked or cropped a dog, i dont think that having a dogs tail docked or ears cropped is so bad,(when done at a very young age).
Posts: 52 | From: queens | Registered: Oct 2003
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lou3
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posted February 12, 2004 12:30 PM
except that cropping ears isnt done a very young age. It isnt even done before the owner gets the dog at 8 weeks old. Its comparable to forcing a fifteen year old into having a nose job against their wishes.
lou
Posts: 461 | From: uk | Registered: Nov 2003
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The Miss
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Member # 599
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posted February 12, 2004 01:15 PM
I left my dogs ears and tail intact. I don't see the point in cropping them
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"Me fail english? Thats un-possible!"
Posts: 18 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2004
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goombaya
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posted February 13, 2004 07:38 AM
Its such a touchy subject. Noticed westminster kennel club was being sued this year for violation of animal cruelty laws in NY. Directly related to tail docking.
I wonder whats considered mutalation... spay/neuter? Tatooing? removal of dew claws? How about some of the grooming techniques? I wonder where the line gets drawn..
I suppose thats why I have always just felt it was an issue best dealt with by the parent clubs of each breed.. they are the keepers of their own breeds standards, know their breeds better than anyone else, and are in the best position to determine if or when something like tail docking is obsolete within their breed. If they think its in the best interest of the breed, they have the ability to change their standard.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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kiwi
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posted February 13, 2004 02:00 PM
The British Government currently has a 'working party' formulating ideas for the update of archaic British animal related legislation (some of it is Victorian). Banning tail docking is on the agenda, and presently considered a very popular idea, especially with the minister concerned (i think he is still their) Elliot Morley. Checked the online dictionary - Mutilation is unnecessary removal of essential limbs of the body. Therefore, tattoos couldnt be regarded as mutilation, as you are simply adding a stamp - it may be silly and momentarily painful, but this should be considered cosmetic alteration, similar to piercing.
Grooming techniques, that i know of at least, are just hair dressing. Some may be odd or extreme, but then humans shave and crop and tattoo themselves. Dew claw removal is more akin to removing an ingrown toenail - something that occurs on a few people/animals, that can cause an injury. This is preventative surgery, which I would consider akin to removing tumours etc - and is ONLY by qualified vets under anaesthetic, and is not regarded as 'an essntial limb', nor alters expression of the dog - the tail is used a tool of primary communication between dogs and dogs and dogs and people.
Also, dew claw removal is not requested for purely arbitary 'breed standards', and most dogs with a dew claw would not have it removed until it was actually noticed that it is being cuaght and snagged, and causing an obvious imeadiate danger. This doesnt make it akin to tail docking, as this is considered to be done to every dog of every breed with the 'standard of breed or working'; as the arguement goes,
'we will dock every tail JUST IN CASE their is an injury, not becasue a particular risk or near miss has been assessed and quantified for each case on its own merit.
If you are fixed upon the 'injury prevention' arguement, why are Greyhounds not docked, as they are famous for injury their tails?.
I have first hand knowledge of this - in my kennels, over 10 years, the only dogs that HAVE injured their tails - by exuberantly and obliviously wagging them against walls - have been Greyhounds - we have one right now that has done this. Usually, we find a way to overcome this, often having to move the dog, tape up the tail, even putting toilet roills on the ends!. We have only had to semi dock one of these tails.
Lastly, spaying/neutering - yes, you could argue that this is akin to tail docking, as you are removing 'an essential limb'. But, this too is done by ONLY by vets under anaesthetic.
But the arguement is 'fluid', as this limb is not essential for expression nor communication, nor mobility, existence, or health and wellbeing - unless you wish to breed. Thereofore, this 'essential' removal is more akin to removal of the second human kidney.
Overall, as a human, ask yourself the question - - if you removed your childs little finger 'just in case she catches it in doorways', on 'behalf of her benefit',
without her conscious consent,
do you think this child, once older,
would accept your argument,
"dont worry, it was only like if i'd tattood or sterilised you, removed your second kidney, shaved your hair off minus a mohican, or removed your ingrown tail?
Posts: 14 | Registered: Feb 2004
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lou3
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posted February 13, 2004 03:54 PM
Kiwi - good news is that the royal college of veterinary surgeons has already banned tail docking so any vet proved to be docking tails can be struck off.
Since its already illegal to do it yourself theoretically its shouldnt happen at all. Making it officially illegal will hopefully put an end to it altogether tho. They already teach at vet schools that it is banned in the UK, so all good news! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Lou
Posts: 461 | From: uk | Registered: Nov 2003
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goombaya
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posted February 13, 2004 04:12 PM
Whew Kiwi.. thats alot of writing. I'll go ahead and reply to most of it.
Let me first steer you to this link, Its the website for the council of docked breeds. They clearly spell out the arguement for docking. http://www.cdb.org/
And this link from the same group http://www.cdb.org/sweden.htm
You will find a coherant arguement in favor of docking. Including medical information, research studies and actual pictures of undocked damaged dogs.
Next I do not advocate docking on your own.. I think a vet should do it.. and do it early.
"Grooming techniques, that i know of at least, are just hair dressing. Some may be odd or extreme"
When I referred to grooming I was thinking about painful shaver burns, and even nails that are cut to the quick.
"Dew claw removal is more akin to removing an ingrown toenail"
Dew claws are a digit just as the other digits, they are not an ingrown toenail. And most breeds remove dewclaws at birth- not when they are damaged, but as a preventative to damage.. just as I was describing in tail docking.
"spaying/neutering - yes, you could argue that this is akin to tail docking, as you are removing 'an essential limb'. But, this too is done by ONLY by vets under anaesthetic.
But the arguement is 'fluid', as this limb is not essential for expression nor communication, nor mobility, existence, or health and wellbeing."
Again I wouldnt recommend doing anything without a vet.. but, you cant tell me that spaying or neutering isnt more invasive than tail docking. AND there are well documented personality changes that occur thereafter.. The medical benefits of spay/neuter again are preventative. I.E. Cancers and such.. in practice we all know it is done to prevent unwanted litters.. I would say that this is more for human convenience than for any health reason - im pretty sure the dog wouldnt want to be neutered if given a choice.
"Overall, as a human, ask yourself the question - - if you removed your childs little finger 'just in case she catches it in doorways', on 'behalf of her benefit',
without her conscious consent,
do you think this child, once older,
would accept your argument"
I would say that circumcision falls into this category. Should we ban that also?
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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mojo
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posted February 15, 2004 11:55 AM
good point goombaya
Posts: 52 | From: queens | Registered: Oct 2003
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Brattina88
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posted February 15, 2004 12:05 PM
there has been some good points made here. If I ever had puppies I wouldn't dock them, thats my personal opinion. I'm not neccisarily against anyone docking the tails of little puppies but I AM against doing it yourself without professional experiance. I think that if you think you must have it done you should go to your vet! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ February 15, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Brattina88 ]
Posts: 24 | From: Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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crazy_for_corgis
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posted February 20, 2004 07:28 PM
bottom line: If you don't know how to dock a dog's tail, DONT DO IT!! I have seen many dogs with messed up tails from the breeders not knowing what they are doing. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Posts: 22 | From: canada | Registered: Feb 2004
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stephydoo
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posted March 02, 2004 01:46 PM
i breed jack rusells and if i were keeping them the tails would be kept on, however i have come to realise that they just dont sell with tails so id rather have a two second pain than be left with a litter of pups
Posts: 8 | From: scotland | Registered: Mar 2004
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lou3
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posted March 02, 2004 04:10 PM
you do realise it is illegal in the UK? Its a prosecutable offence to do it yourself which could result in a lifetime ban from keeping animals and/or a jail sentance and any vet caught docking tails for purposes other than medical purposes can be struck off by the RCVS.
Lou
Posts: 461 | From: uk | Registered: Nov 2003
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goombaya
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posted March 02, 2004 07:10 PM
Lou,
Although the RCVS has banned tail docking, it does not police the practice and with that many vets still perform docking in the UK, and the rcvs seems unwilling to take them to disciplabary action for it.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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lou3
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posted March 03, 2004 07:52 AM
trust me if someone reports it they take action, have had first hand experience with this myself when a local vet was struck off. They are tightening up and a lot more vets are being put off performing the procedure.
Lou
Posts: 461 | From: uk | Registered: Nov 2003
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