|
Author
|
Topic: Need help quick--puppies
|
carriecrowe
Member
Member # 472
Member Rated:
|
posted July 14, 2004 07:59 AM
andrea i am sorry to hear one of the puppies have died. like i said in my last post i give you thumbs up for what you are doing as well. was the puppies small or decent sized when born? if they was all pretty small that would debate how big the mommy got, and if she wasnt getting fed properly it would probably have something to do with her size and how much she was showing.
ELITE yes i WAS going to find precious a new home at one time. my husband and i have reevaluated our situation and decided not to get rid of her. i was looking for a new home for her for ONE reason and ONE reason only. i have been having alot of problems with my feet. they often hurt so bad i cant stand up. It got to where i cant even go outside to help take care of the dogs. I am going to a specailist to check and see what my problem is and what they have to do to correct the problem. since i have recently had to take time off work i have been able to rest my feet and actually go out and spend time working with precious and the other two. might not be able to spend a bunch of time out with them in the sense of training them and running after them, but i do go out and pet them and try to do what i can before i push myself to far. since i am gonna get my feet fixed and within 3 mos couldnt find her a home we decided to keep her because once i get my feet fixed i will be able to take over on training my dogs again and spend alot more time with them. i wish i was as lucky as you and had someone putting up a fence for me, for me to put a fence up for my dogs (a good fence) it's gonna cost me almost $1,000. i have called every fencing company around here and that was the cheapest. if we do it ourselves it wont cost much less considering all the fence we would need to give the dogs enough room (in my mind) we are going here in a couple weeks to start pricing the kennels and stuff like that so we can see what would benefit us and the dogs and how much we have to come up with and see if it would be even cheaper than the fence. i am wanting to put down a concrete floor so they cant dig out, but that is something that still needs to be discussed between my husband and i... OH and my dogs will be well protected when we get this up, i am padlocking the door (i know my dogs well enough i wouldnt have that any other way), we are running both hot wire and chicken fence along the bottom of the pen (we want to get more chickens and ducks too)
Posts: 118 | From: Batesville,Ar | Registered: Dec 2003
|
|
sgour
Member
Member # 984
Member Rated:
|
posted July 14, 2004 08:55 AM
Andrea, how are the two pups? If I am understanding you correctly, Ginger is still with your mother right? So, would it be possible to bring her to your house? THe problem with her may be that since the day they were born you have been providing most of the care, and it is possible that Ginger thinks that you are going to continue to take care of them, and that they are yours. As ellierat suggested, if you force her to stay in the same room as the pups, if she accepts the new area she may resume her job as mom. I would not leave her so that you are not able to see, as she may try to harm them. Put a pup on her teat and see what she does. They are at a very critical age right now, so it is important that you act quickly. If you cannot get mom, then you will have to continue with the bottle feeding. Do you have a heating pad at home? If you place a heating pad, on high, in the box that may help also. THe pups will move towards the heat, so hang a house lamp and put in a heating pad. THat will also help them to go to the bathroom. Wiping them with a towel will also help. Remember, a dogs mouth is very warm, so you will need to use very warm water to stimulate them. Not boiling hot, but warm enough. You will need to continue with this until the pups are able to go on their own. You can try giving them a couple drops of mineral oil. This will help them for #2. A vet can also give an enima to clean them out. Have you contacted a vet regarding this situation?
By the time this is all over I would recommend that you keep them (saw your other post). You will have raised them and bonded with them like a mother, and that would make it even harder to part with them. But right now I would concentrate more on keeping them alive. Since they did not nurse within the 1st 24 hours they are at a greater risk of infection. As they were covered in maggots, this is a great possibility. Keep a close eye on them, and if you cannot get mom over to you for a while, then try the other recommendations and hopefully it will all work out. I would recommend also that you do contact a vet if you haven't already.
Keep us posted.
Shannon
[ July 14, 2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: sgour ]
Posts: 51 | From: South Bend, IN | Registered: May 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 14, 2004 06:08 PM
So today Ginger had another puppy. It was born dead. So she was taken to the vet and she is very sick. Her temp was 104. They gave her a shot to clean her out and some antibiotics. The vet she was taken to is a farm type vet (even though they regularly see dogs) and they are only in on Wednesdays and Saturdays. I think that if she were taken to a regular vet they may have kept her for awhile. I can't bring Ginger to my house although that would be ideal. Right now I live in a dinky apartment while our house is being remodeled. We're moving in a month but that is obviously too late. Mom will not let Ginger and the pups stay inside and outside it is too hot and they will get flies on them again. I don't think she would be able to take care of them right now anyway. Oh, the reason they weren't nursing the vet said is because until she has all her pups she can't produce milk. Sounds odd to me but okay. The pups are still doing wonderful. Eating great, peeing and pooping regularly. They're getting plenty of love ![[Smile]](smile.gif) They are being kept warm. They aren't crying much, only when they get hungry. I'm feeding them every two hours but I think that may be too often. I've been researching how often to feed them and I've found from every two hours to every eight. I'm thinking three during the day and four during the night, how does that sound? The vet said he would rather see the pups being fed by me than see them outside with the flies on them eating from their mother. He said that is the maggots hatch on them they will eat the pups. How disgusting is that??? I'm sure Ginger is very depressed but I just don't see a way around this. It's such a bad situation and so should've been avoided.
So do you think I should take the pups to the vet right away or wait until they're a bit older? Like a week or so? They seem so small to be having shots ![[Frown]](frown.gif) Is it true that all pups are born with worms? That's what my sister told me but I see no worms in their poo or anything. Oh, the vet also said that Parvo is going around bad. What is this? Can they get immunizations against this? Thanks.
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
DaxAriel's toy
Member
Member # 740
Member Rated:
|
posted July 14, 2004 07:00 PM
They should be dewormed at about 2 weeks the first time. These are drops you can pick up from the vet with instructions.
Unfortunately they are much too little for Parvo shots. Even at 2 months old they would be very young for the shots but can be done.
Kiss the babies for us....
[ July 14, 2004, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: DaxAriel's toy ]
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
|
|
ellierat
Member
Member # 612
Member Rated:
|
posted July 14, 2004 07:01 PM
This is so terrible for you and Ginger. Beside that, and I hope everyone can refrain from being critical here, Andrea needs our help, not our scorn, the situation is what it is and that is the facts.
Now we know why Ginger would not settle.
The puppies, ideally, feed every 4 hours. 24/7 for the next week, gradually increasing the amount of each feed, read packet directions to be sure. Slowly over the following 2 weeks the feeds become more volume but less often, till the pups at 3 weeks of age can start on solid feed.
IE: up to 1 week old, every 4 hours
up to 2 weeks old every 5 hours
up to 3 weeks old every 6 hours
finally at 3 weeks introduce liquid puppy feed in bowl 4 times a day, with a bit from the bottle inbetween.
See if you can get them on mum, supervised for a few hours in the next 48, they will get the colostrum, which is vital for immunity.
Parvo is a nasty virus that will kill a pup within 12 hours if they catch it.
It can be carried on your shoes, and hands, make sure when you go to the pups you remove your shoes and wash your hands.
--------------------
I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
|
|
ellierat
Member
Member # 612
Member Rated:
|
posted July 14, 2004 07:11 PM
Don't worry about the worms at the moment, yes they can be carried through from mum but are just roundworms.
When you worm the puppies at 2 weeks worm mum as well or they can pass them back and forth.
Clean up any poo that they may have contact with, including mum. This is where parvo can come from too.
Mum can become quite sick, she may have pyometra of the womb, I would advise spaying ASAP, but they won't be able to do it while the teats are down. I think honestly, she may Die. I'm sorry to say this. She needs as much attention now as the puppies. Her temperature will put her off eating, you will need to give her puppy formula milk the same as the pups are having is quite fine, warm it too, encourage her to get some fluids down. She needs as much fluid as you can possibly get her to drink.
She will have a bloody discharge for a couple of weeks and possibly quite black poo. Keep an eye on any flies and maggots on her vulva, back passage and sleeping area. She is a Golden Retreiver? she will have long fur at the back, see if you can clip some of it away, so blood etc doesn't stick to it.
Also are you feeding the puppies with a bottle and teat or are you using a syringe.
Whatever you are using don't force it in their throats, if you see milk comming out of their noses you are getting it on their lungs, they must suckle normally, or you will drown them with the milk and they will die.
[ July 14, 2004, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: ellierat ]
--------------------
I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 14, 2004 09:27 PM
The puppies are eating from a bottle. The male does very well with it. He gets a good latch on and sucks strongly for about 30 seconds, then turns away and goes to sleep. The females mouth is much smaller and she's having trouble latching on. Sometimes she does it but it takes awhile. I'm using my daughter's baby bottles. We bought a couple of bottles from the vet but they are worthless. Does anyone think I need to take these pups to the vet now to evaluate them and see how they are doing?
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
ellierat
Member
Member # 612
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 12:45 AM
Generally speaking NO, but if you want to for your peace of mind you can, the only thing he will be able to tell is heartbeat, deformities.
Hairlip, cleftpalate, under/overshot jaw, missing toes, etc. if you know what to look for you can check yourself. Maybe one of the reasons the female cant suckle properly, cleftpalate and hairlip can cause that problem.
Or she could just be so weak that she can't hang on, the male should suckle for longer too. I would guess they are weak. After the male has suckled, when he nods off, stimulate him, all you have to do is rub his back, get him moving again, he will give a mewling sound, put the teat back in his mouth. You are better off with a puppy teat, it has the correct flow, as I stated before if they get too much in the throat it can get on their lungs, it doesn't necessarily come out of their nose to mean this has happened. Check their mouthes, do the lips look normal or does it have a whistling sound?
Open Gingers mouth, look up in the roof of it, now look in the puppies make sure they look the same. It won't be easy to do as they are small, and fidget, won't like you doing it. Don't get hold of them on either side of their neck to do this though, be very gentle. If you grab either side of the neck the main arteries run along up to the brain and you can kill them. Hold them just by the jaws, placing a thumb and finger at the back on either side of the jaw, they should automatically open them, but you will have to look quickly, they squirm pretty fast. Don't forget they are deaf as well as blind, so they can't hear you.
--------------------
I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 06:25 AM
This is so complicated. We had to poke the holes in the puppy bottles, they weren't done. The nipple is so so skinny and they just can't latch on. It is smaller than Ginger's teats. It just doesn't work. The male is eating all he will. They are very small puppies. I'd like to weigh them but I need to get a scale first. I read that right now their stomach is max 1cc and they have been getting at least that much. I'm scared about the lung thing. Nothing has came out their nose yet but if it doesn't always do that how do I tell??
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
sgour
Member
Member # 984
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 07:24 AM
All you need to do to ensure they don't drown in the milk is to let them eat naturally as ellierat said. When you put the bottle in their mouth (which should be similar to a teat) they should pull slightly with their head to get the milk out. If you are seriously worried, just watch when they eat. Listen for rasping gurgling noises, or signs of distress. If you allow them to eat naturally (as best they can) then this should not occur.
Andrea you truly are an angel for taking in these pups and raising them the way you have. I am very sorry for Ginger, and I hope that she makes a recovery as well. Her care is very critical right now also, so I hope your mom is taking good care of her. She took her to the vet at least, that's something.
Good luck Andrea, and don't hesitate with more questions. Keep us up to date and I hope all goes well.
Shannon
Posts: 51 | From: South Bend, IN | Registered: May 2004
|
|
ellierat
Member
Member # 612
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 02:18 PM
Hi there, don't panic, as shannon has said they will splutter and pull back from the teat.
With the puppy bottle, they actually sort of swallow it, the teat goes right down their throat when they get hold of it, if they have a really good grip on it when you try to remove it, it is stuck, when you pull, the suction is so good it makes a sound as you pull it out.
To make the holes get a metal skewer, heat it up and push it through from the inside. A needle or pin isn't big enough. I had the same problem when I first used one, I know what you mean, I forgot all about that, it's a royal pain in the A R S E. LOL.
What I meant was don't be tempted to squeeze the bottle to make the milk go down, let them suckle it. Sorry I confused you.
[ July 15, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: ellierat ]
--------------------
I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 07:39 PM
Well they are eating naturally so that's good to hear. Is it normal for them to have wee bit of a runny nose? Not really runny but once in awhile they sneeze and a few tiny drops splatter out. Just wanting to make sure they aren't catching a cold. Also, their poo is yellow and seedlike, is this normal? You guys are great, I can't thank you enough. And I don't know why you guys are acting like what I'm doing is so wonderful because I know you all would do the same thing. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
sambucca/whiskey
Member
Member # 989
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 07:55 PM
grain like sounds like worms, gotta get some dewormer for the 2 week mark.
What you are doing is WONDERFUL!!!!!
Posts: 246 | Registered: May 2004
|
|
DaxAriel's toy
Member
Member # 740
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 07:57 PM
You are incredible for doing this and take the praise. Ellierat, Goombaya and Sgour are all very knowledgable and will help you I'm sure.
Can you let the rest of us (who are just praying & hoping for you and the little ones) know: - How's Ginger. Is she on the mend or still sick?
[ July 15, 2004, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: DaxAriel's toy ]
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 08:38 PM
I went over to see Ginger tonight and I think she is on the mend. She looks very weak and is so not herself but she is eating and drinking well. She is going to the vet again on Saturday. Seedlike sounds wormy, huh? There aren't worms in the poop. (sorry, I know nothing about this) Can the worms be passed to humans? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) (have a two year old and another due in September) So I can't give them the worm medicine until 2 weeks?
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
DaxAriel's toy
Member
Member # 740
Member Rated:
|
posted July 15, 2004 08:52 PM
I've heard of people catching worms from dog - the best thing is to wash your hands after handling them and stop french kissing the puppies. LOL
PS - you have to ingest the worm eggs to get the worms.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
|
|
ellierat
Member
Member # 612
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 02:04 AM
IS it yellow/mustard color with tiny grains?
If so it is puppy diarrehea, it is definately NOT WORMS. Is it very smelly? It will be the formula milk. Just keep an eye on it, should settle in a few days, you may have the forumula a bit too strong for them, just weaken it a little, not much though.
I said to you, don't worry about worms at this stage, even if they had them they would be so insignificant as to not be a problem at the moment.
Just keep going Andrea, you are doing fine, just always make sure your bottles, teats are sterilized, that is wash them in boiling water, bacteria can build up in them. Also the water you use to make the formula, boil it first then let it cool. What I did in the past was make the mix up, then cool bottle in cup of cold water to luke warm, like if you bottle fed your kids.
--------------------
I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
|
|
ellierat
Member
Member # 612
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 02:36 AM
Just got a chance to read the whole post, hubby was hassleing me over tea. You can catch the worms, mainly roundworm and tapeworm.
Don't panic here, it would just be best if you can get your mum to watch the kids and not let them touch the puppies. We don't know for sure if it is worms. What you can do is to worm Ginger now, check her poo for a day or so, if you see worms in it you can bet the pups have them, but don't panic.
You can worm yourself and your kids. Your kids would have to have touched some poo with the worms or eggs on them, and then put their hands in their mouths. It would be a good idea that you all wormed yourselves when you do the pups too.
You can't worm the pups now, you will kill them.
You will have to check their weight, make sure they are at least over 500grms each to worm them.
Simple kitchen scales for their age.
Could you please PM me, just to let me know what country you are in, simply so I know what products you may be accessible to and whether to convert from metric to imperial. I will not display this information publicly.
[ July 16, 2004, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: ellierat ]
--------------------
I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 05:13 AM
I'm in the US. Illinois. I'm worried now because I didn't sterilie the bottles or boil the milk I just thought the Esbilac can would've said to. I feel horrible now. I'm boiling the water to sterilize the bottle and nipples a right now. Would it be okay if I used distilled water instead of boiling water each time? Would I need to heat the distilled water a bit? Also, if they don't eat all their bottle can I put it in the fridge and heat it a bit in the microwave next time? Their poo is like you described. Lately when I'm feeding them they stop and start smacking their mouth together like they have mucus in the back of their throat. That's the best way I can explain it. Does the nipple I'm using need to be a slow flow? I mean, it's relitively slow because it's for babies but does it need to be thinner? Do you think these puppies are going to make it? I know that's probably impossible to answer. Sorry I have so many questions. Thank you!
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
DaxAriel's toy
Member
Member # 740
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 05:24 AM
Don't worry so much - you're doing a fantasic job. I doubt anyone else who has had so little puppy experience could have done any better.
Ellierat usually signs on about 3 or 4 your time.
In the meantime - Distilled water is fine (great actually).
I don't think it hurt to bring warm the milk (dog's body temperature about 100 degrees f. normally) a drop on your arm should feel neither hot nor cold.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 05:36 AM
Thank you Is Ellierat a vet? If not she should be!!
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 05:41 AM
Oh, they were born on Monday so they're 4 days old. Wow.
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
DaxAriel's toy
Member
Member # 740
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 06:05 AM
Ellierat - is a breeder of labs. I think she probably has more experience than most vets when it comes to puppies. Goombaya is a breeder too. and SGour just had a little of boxer pups. You've got a wealth of informative people who would love to help you.
PS I wanted to add this. You are more likely to catch worms from unwashed lettuce than taking care of dogs.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
|
|
DaxAriel's toy
Member
Member # 740
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 06:07 AM
PS Distilled water is great for mixing with their food but for sterilizing the teats, the water has to be boiling to kill the germs.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
|
|
AndreaMoon
Member
Member # 1210
Member Rated:
|
posted July 16, 2004 06:25 AM
Wow about the lettuce thing, I'll keep that in mind the next time I wash it. I sterilized all of the teats and bottles.
Posts: 41 | From: IL | Registered: Jul 2004
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic