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Topic: choke chain?
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Conanthe Brabarian
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posted April 09, 2004 09:06 AM
just wanted to get some opinions on choke chains.
mean and cruel or good training tool?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 61 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Apr 2004
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mojo
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posted April 09, 2004 09:12 AM
we recently had a discussion about this same topic u can find it in the training forum under the name pinch collar.
Posts: 52 | From: queens | Registered: Oct 2003
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted April 09, 2004 09:14 AM
I have had several dogs over 70 lbs and tried choke chains initially when trying to train to heel. If not used correctly they are 1) waste of time 2) can cause damage.
For Conan I think the key will be to get him trained early. The choke trains work by you giving a quick tug and releasing. It can be done with a regular collar just as well. Also the now have something called a "GENTLE LEAD" which fits around the dog's head so if he pulls it is with his face. It easy on you since most dogs would pull and gentle on them. However at 10 weeks you should put a good puppy collar on him and start training. You may never have any problems with control.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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Conanthe Brabarian
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posted April 09, 2004 09:42 AM
wow. Deffinately some mixed opinions on these collars. Im still a little confused about one thing. I've been told that its ok to use the choke chain for training, but wait till the dog is older, but Ive also been told that it is ok for me to start with him now, he is a 10 week old (today!) Bull Mastiff? Can we start or should I wait? Which is the best thing for my dog? Thanks for help
Posts: 61 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Apr 2004
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted April 09, 2004 10:16 AM
Start training now but not with a choke chain (not until 6-8 months of age min.) Like I said if you start now when he's little you may find you never need any additional tools to control him (ie pulling you around on walks). Puppy Collar (make sure to check it at least weekly that it still fits)
Plenty of time for other things later. Right now they are so fun to be with that it's great to teach them the basics. Sit, Down, walk on lead. With little Ariel it seems that every day she learns something new. She's only 3 months old but drops down on command every time. I believe this will be extremely useful when she 90 lbs. Everyone has an opinion about choke collars because every dog is different. A mastiff will have different strenghts than a mini poodle and the collars, leads, etc. will be different too. You should always do what you feel most comfortable at since you pet will pick up on your feelings.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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Conanthe Brabarian
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posted April 09, 2004 10:21 AM
thanks for clearing that up for me doglover. We will be starting today with the regular collar. Can't wait! We will see how it goes...
Posts: 61 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Apr 2004
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lou3
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posted April 11, 2004 06:40 AM
puppys have delicate throats and we dont use choke chains at all except on "remedial" dogs, and then only for a short period of time.
With good training he should never need more than an ordinary collar. A soft rope slip leash can give more control for larger dogs without being as severe as a choke chain.
when starting early training with the leash aim simply to have the dog walking without pulling, dont worry too much just yet about walking perfectly to heel. Your aim first is for respect for the leash, keep training sessions short so as not to bore him and finish immediately you get any sort of appropriate response. (ie a few steps where he is not pulling on the lead) Let him sniff things so he know the LEAD is not his restriction but merely a guide as to where he should be - your VOICE is his restriction and the lead is there to reinforce that. Dont use it to control him - just to keep hold of him. He should be controlled by your voice commands. Dont let him get in the habit of fighting with the leash or he will be a puller all his life.
Hope this helps a little with your pup
Lou
Posts: 461 | From: uk | Registered: Nov 2003
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted April 11, 2004 08:04 AM
Great reply Lou - that's exactly how I feel about a lead.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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Conanthe Brabarian
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posted April 12, 2004 06:46 AM
ok guys, we started leash training over the weekend...Conan doesn't seem to like it! But its only the very begining. He will walk around the yard ok, but we tried to walk him down onto the sidewalk, and he wont budge. I think he is afraid of the cars going by, he seems very afraid of leaving his yard, which is understandable. He also likes to try and chew on the leash. We are using a soft leash, we bought a choke chain, but we are thinking that we wont use it later on (we dont even like the looks of the thing!) Anyway, any help is always appreciated, thanks!
Posts: 61 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Apr 2004
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted April 12, 2004 08:35 AM
Sound like progress is being made. It’s very natural for him to be nervous even scared of large noisy beast. Conan will eventually get used to the car noises but to speed things along, I would
ABOUT THE SCARY NOISE:
a) sit on your front yard or porch close to where the cars are going by. Bring some of his food in your pocket and just sit for 15 – 20 minutes. Play cuddle touch and generally focus on him. (don’t try to teach him anything) Make sure his lead in on so he can’t bolt into trouble. Sit at his level and talk calmly – lovingly to him. He’ll pick up from you that there’s nothing to fear.
b) do (a) above for 2-3 days gradually moving closer to the sidewalk. Eventually he will ignore the noise and concentrate on you. HOWEVER you need to train him to have some fear of roads. I always train my dogs to stop before crossing a road even if there is no traffic and I look both ways (so do they eventually) and then we “HURRY” across.
When they are puppies they tend to get scared of lots of things. My grown rotti is terrified of hot air ballons (but at least now she’ll come out of the house) and pop bottles. My 4 month old was startled by my husband opening pop bottle and I wasn’t going to let it happen again. What I did was to take an empty bottle – put some of her dog food in it so it rattles – and now it’s a cheap toy she absolutely loves. It holds no fear for her. What I found works best when my pup is afraid of something is to go down to her level on all fours and let her show me what is scary – then we both smell it together (I make a real production of sniffing) and her courage is boosted by me being with her and me being unafraid. I never ignore when she is startled or afraid, I stop – investigate with her and move on.
THE LEASH
No dog starts out liking leash but he is taking to his collar ok. Right? Trick I found is to expect compliance. If you stop every time he decides he’s done then he’s walking you. Remember you are in charge and you are not doing cruel things to him. Being well trained on a leash may one day save his life. (and your arms).
First show a treat in your hand – let him sniff it but don’t give it to him. In your yard, walk a square. If he fights the lead (a little) ignore it and continue walking. If he decides he is not moving – show the treat again you are keeping in your right hand for him. Use your voice to encourage him, be exciting. Give the treat more often in the beginning – let say 10 ft – gradually taper off. This might take weeks to get fully down so be patient.
Also I found that if both my husband and I are walking the dogs, the puppy does not respond as quickly as when I do it myself. I am the primary care giver and trainer. Once I teach the puppy a command and she knows it – then I teach it to my husband and he will try it. I believe in teaching new commands with both hand & voice signals and eventually either one is effective.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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Conanthe Brabarian
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posted April 13, 2004 02:20 PM
Once again guys, thanks for all of the helpful info! Sometimes I dont know what I'd do with out this forum, drive myself crazy cooking homemade meals for Conan... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 61 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Apr 2004
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weimlover0816
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posted April 16, 2004 10:56 AM
Have you considered a "Gentle Leader". It is an alternative to a choke chain... and I personally think it is more humane. Do a search online and check out their website. I know many people with dogs in my area use them, and they help so much. A great training tool, especially for the pup who looooves to "walk you"... Good Luck!!
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"My Weimaraner is smarter than your honors student!"
Posts: 221 | From: USA-Maine | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barbara Smith
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posted April 17, 2004 07:24 PM
Coranthe, you can really hurt your pup with a choke chain, even when she's a dog if you are not experience with it. I'd use the gentle leader also. That way you also can start now.
Good luck with your pup and enjoy!
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Barbara Smith
Posts: 127 | From: Norf.,Va | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barbara Smith
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posted April 17, 2004 07:29 PM
Coranthe, talking about cooking for your pup, why not cook up alot at once and freeze access in containers or freezer bags until needed? I cook for my dog also and I find it much easier to do it this way.
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Barbara Smith
Posts: 127 | From: Norf.,Va | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barbara Smith
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posted April 17, 2004 07:29 PM
Coranthe, talking about cooking for your pup, why not cook up alot at once and freeze access in containers or freezer bags until needed? I cook for my dog also and I find it much easier to do it this way.
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Barbara Smith
Posts: 127 | From: Norf.,Va | Registered: Apr 2004
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carriecrowe
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posted April 18, 2004 08:36 PM
i have a different problem than yours, i have a 8 mo rottie and she has broken every regular colar we can buy for her within a short amount of time, we have bought the thick well made ones and they are broke within a couple weeks. I pretty well have no alternative than to get a choke chain if i want something that is gonna last awhile. she is tied up if i am not available to watch her at all times when she runs the yard. I have alot of people down here around me that isnt to fond of the rottie breed. They are well known i guess in this state for fighting dogs. for those of you who will question this, i do know a bit bout choke chains and i will get the proper one to fit for what i need.
Posts: 118 | From: Batesville,Ar | Registered: Dec 2003
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weimlover0816
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posted April 19, 2004 03:35 AM
carriecrowe, Have you considered building a pen outside for your dog, so that she can be untethered but still contained, while you are not outside with her? I don't think choke chains are meant to be used when a dog is chained up, unsupervised.... it seems dangerous to me. What does anyone else think??
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Posts: 221 | From: USA-Maine | Registered: Apr 2004
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Conanthe Brabarian
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posted April 19, 2004 08:33 AM
Hello all! We are not using the choke chain, and we probably never will. We went to the park this weekend, and he did really well on his leash. We walked around a big field without any problems, and Conan even made a few friends along the way!We walked for about twenty minutes and that was enough for him. He is progressing really well, GO CONAN!!
Posts: 61 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Apr 2004
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weimlover0816
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posted April 19, 2004 09:36 AM
Congrats to Conan!
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"My Weimaraner is smarter than your honors student!"
Posts: 221 | From: USA-Maine | Registered: Apr 2004
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mojo
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posted April 19, 2004 10:14 AM
carrie, if your dog keeps breaking the collars then mabey u should try a harness but im not sure how it would work for tying out purpose. i definatley wouldnt recommend a choke chain for tying out. http://www.blockydogs.com/ they make collars for big dogs
Posts: 52 | From: queens | Registered: Oct 2003
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MarioLuigi
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posted April 22, 2004 03:15 PM
I am very much for choke chains if they are used right. On a large dog with high pain tolerance who needs to be trained well, like a pitbull, the choke chain is a good idea to get them used to walking on a leash. A gentle leader will do nothing for them. For a dog like a *****n Frise, it's a very bad idea because they have low pain tolerance and are pretty fragile.
[ April 22, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: MarioLuigi ]
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Posts: 92 | From: California | Registered: Mar 2004
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PUP4ME
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posted April 23, 2004 09:00 AM
Hi All,
On this same issue, I was wondering if anyone has any solid suggestions for me as I am at my wits end. My 36lb 10 mos old border collie mix pulls so hard on his lead, that walks outside have become almost unbearable. I bought the Gentle Leader and all he'll do is lie in the grass trying sooo hard to remove it from his face. He absolutely hates it. He won't get up up from that position unless he sees a squirrel or bird and then tries taking off until he gets the tug at which time he drops once again to the ground.
After a few days of this we went back to the regular collar and once again the walking/choking scenario. He comes back and his eyes are red from from the stress caused by the pulling. I'm at my wits end. We have tried lots of treats but to no avail. Can someone please help???!!!
Posts: 8 | From: Maryland | Registered: Apr 2004
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weimlover0816
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posted April 23, 2004 10:23 AM
Here is what has worked for me... and mind you this, as well as the Gentle Leader, is only a training method and not a forever thing. As with any training, consistency is important. If the way I describe this doesn't make sense, let me know and I will try again. Perhaps I can try to get a picture of it to put up here, if I ever get my camera back (it is being repaired....) but, I digress
So here it is:
1. Attach the leash to your dog's collar as normal.
2. Have the collar "turned" so the leash is by the dog's right shoulder and running parallel to the right side of his/her body. Extend the leash back to the hind end of the dog, leaving slack... don't let it get too "tight"
3. Take the handle of the lead and loop it under the dog's waist and up to the left side (kind of like the dog is in a "sling"). Still leaving slack....
4. Now, lift a little of the straight part of the leash (from the right side) and loop the handle under it. Pull the handle through
5. Your dog is now "looped through" his/her leash. Still leave slack, you don't want the loop to be too tight around the dog's waist
6. Begin walking and saying "HEEL". Having the leashed looped under the dog's waist creates an uncomfortable feeling when he/she pulls, and beleive me, they will try. Pretty soon they will realize it is much easier to just walk with you than try to pull.
Seriously, you will be able to walk your dog with ONE FINGER holding the leash handle. Keep saying "HEEL" while walking, and give treats/praise for obeying. I can tell you from experience that at first, your dog is probably going to freak out, and try to run in circles to get the leash OFF!!. Don't let go of the leash, just gently pull to tighten the lead around his/her waist and keep saying HEEL.They will get over it, I promise!!! Once you and your dog begin to walk let him/her test the boundries of the lead, he/she will proabbly try to run ahead, but when the lead tightens slightly around the waist, they will stop.
Try this, and if you like it, do it EVERY TIME you walk your dog.... remember, consistency.
Maybe try it inside first, see how it goes. The thing I like best about this is that your dog won't be able to lie on the lawn and try to get the lead off, if you are walking and he/she doesn't follow, the tightening sensation occurs and they will feel uncomfortable. It doesn't hurt them at all, just really annoying feeling when they pull.
Good luck, let us know how it goes!!
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Posts: 221 | From: USA-Maine | Registered: Apr 2004
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KiKi
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posted April 23, 2004 11:33 AM
My German Shepherd did the same thing with the Gentle Leader. 1st of all they should be fitted properly. Make sure a vet or trainer fits it for you. Second, try putting it on for just short periods without the leash. They will try to roll around and get it off.. I distracted mine by throwing the ball and playing with her. After a few days I attached the leash and it went a lot better. It really worked well for my PULLER! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 18 | From: Aliquippa, PA | Registered: Oct 2003
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MarioLuigi
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posted April 23, 2004 03:39 PM
Keep the leash around anything that the dog seems as pleasant.
Make the dog wear the leash around the house. As he stops worrying about it. Then try walking him so he gets to lead, but you're right next to him. When he does okay with this, you can start walking him, but don't immediately try to teach him to heel. Let it happen gradually.
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Posts: 92 | From: California | Registered: Mar 2004
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