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Topic: I need advice on how to handle this...
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jena
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posted July 03, 2004 10:35 PM
We bought a tiny pom off puppyfind he was suppose to weigh 2.5 pounds and was 9 weeks old he had 2 sets of shots and wormed 2times the dates on shots were 2 weeks apart not normal 4 he had no shot for distemper. We picked our puppy up at airport at 9pm on sat his eyes were matted some. so first thing monday called vet to get our new baby checked out.they told us weds morn 8 am. puppy was fine eating and playing and fiesty on tues eve puppy got diaharea we took puppy to vet early weds morn puppy was acting fine just not as active they weighed him he was 1.2 pounds not 2.5 he was supposed to be and after temp he laid down and like kept his eyes closed. the vet ran test he was dehydrated enimic very lathargic more test showed almost all his blood work was in low range red blood cells bad they were baffled that his sugar level was 398. normal range was I think 90-140 they said it should have been very low in his case. we emailed the breeder and told him about puppy being sick and he more less is blaming us for neglect this puppy was loved and we treat them like babys and not hurt in anyway and in our site he didn't get into anything toxic.we have had small pom before but she was 10 when she passed of heart failure and a yorkie 2yrs now we know how to take care of puppies this puppy prob should have never been flown for as little as he was but owner says he was fine when he left there. the breeder had 22 dogs on his website on puppyfind at 2 am on weds and the next day all were off but 12 then he keeps saying its are fault our baby passed he never even alled us to see if we got the puppy ok and after we emailed him about puppy being sick he never replied for 22 hrs and never ans our questions. Now he says he don't give refunds he ill replace with a bigger pom and us pay 125.00 towards shipping we have way over 1200.00 in our little puppy that passed.I dont think we should have to pay that plus the dogs on his puppyfind add are listed for around 375.00 we paid 650 plus 200 shipping should we except his offer on a bigger puppy when we wanted one that only gets 4 pounds. should he refund us the difference from 650 to the 375 puppy is there anything we can do legally why accept a puppy on his terms only when we want the kind we bought in first place. any help would be welcomed from breeders. I think he is only in for the money he said he used to sell to pet stores and brokers Well his last email to us was more less you got one week to decide if you want a new puppy on my terms only or scre~ you. We dont give refunds he said. This puppy I feel was sick when we got him and because his eyes were matted. he went downhillin 6 hrs from happy loving puppy to death. We only had him 3 and a half days and got very attached to this little guy PLEASE HELP ![[Frown]](frown.gif) I dont know the laws on this stuff or if it varies from state to state we are in Md and the seller is in nebraska. today after emailing this man about him offering a 375 dollar dog when we paid 650 he raised his prices on the puppyfind webpage
Posts: 24 | From: Indiana | Registered: Jul 2004
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ellierat
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posted July 04, 2004 01:40 AM
Unfortunately there are many unscrupulous breeders out there, myself being a breeder would have done all I could to help you, In Oz there are no laws in regard to this kind of problem, was your puppy registered (purebred papers) maybe you could report him to the Canine body associated in your country with purebred papers.
Sorry you have had this bad experience, if you only had the puppy for 3 days I would hardly think you were to blame, did your vet perform an autopsy? you could get a report of his findings. If there are no laws in your country, I would take another puppy, but state that you want a weeks guarantee on it's health. The money you have lost unfortunately you may have to put down as a bad experience, and never purchase a puppy that needs to be transported or from a web site, without seeing it first.
My thoughts are with you, sorry for your loss.
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I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
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goombaya
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posted July 04, 2004 09:58 AM
I'm not convinced your breeder is totally at fault.
What did your vet say was the cause of death?
Here is maybe a starting point for you:
To fly your puppy (i cant say strongly enough what a bad idea that was) a health certificate should have been required. To get a health certificate a puppy should be fully immunized, so I'd call the vet that issued the certificate. He should have shot records as well as having recorded the weight of the puppy.
I dont know how you flew the pupy without distemper shots or how come it didnt have them most shots are administered in combo's. Anyway, a call to that vets office might clear somethings up.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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jena
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posted July 04, 2004 10:20 AM
I had to ask this man by email what shots he had this is what he emailed back
He has been wormed twice with pyran50
vaccinated 2 times Vanguard cpv plus
Done on 5/20 and then again on 6/10
I didn't fly him here the breeder did
[ July 04, 2004, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: jena ]
Posts: 24 | From: Indiana | Registered: Jul 2004
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jena
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posted July 04, 2004 10:30 AM
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/news/2002/01/awadec01.html
Oct. 23, 2001—Licensed animal dealers Tom Kaelin of Kaelin Kennel and Pets Direct in Lexington, Neb. APHIS intends to show violations in several areas including veterinary care, sanitation and housing
Posts: 24 | From: Indiana | Registered: Jul 2004
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted July 04, 2004 11:31 AM
Have you tried asking for a full refund? I wouldn't take another dog from this guy especially after what you posted on the website.
Maybe give a little hint that if you were to bring in a lawyer that would be his legal fees on top of the pain & suffering the incident caused you.
Then I would look for a local breeder whose facility you can tour. It's the only way to be sure the animal you are getting has been well cared for.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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goombaya
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posted July 04, 2004 11:42 AM
Jena, a couple of things..
You both flew the puppy. You both made the decision to fly the puppy. He may have made the arrangements but its a two party process. Someone sends, someone receives.
The health certificate should be with the papers accompanying the puppy, it should list all of his innoculations. The issuing vets info should be there also. The health certificate has to be issued within 10 days of the travel date. So you do have a means to inquire on the health of the pup "prior" to its travel/ you mention that the breeder told you its weight, and what shots it had, this vet will have a record of it.. if there is a discrepency than you have a solid position.
Parvo alone is not adequate innoculation.
I assume the link you provided is mentioning the breeder you did business with. Its a shame you found it only after you bought a puppy from him. If not an indictment against him it certainly would have raised a red flag large enough for you to consider a responsible breeder.
This is truely a lesson on how NOT to buy a puppy.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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sambucca/whiskey
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posted July 04, 2004 12:41 PM
Goombaya,
I guess you have shown the reason for you low rating, when somebody comes for help and intead you personally attack them.
Jenna is not a breeder and think made it obviouse the pain that she has endured due to the decision to deal with a breeder she had nt met or previously dealt with many people make mistakes when choosing pets that does not mean when they ask for advice you should attack them. Shame on you.
Posts: 246 | Registered: May 2004
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted July 04, 2004 01:06 PM
Jena - if this breeder refuses to give you a refund, you may want to let the cash go. In the long run, you might be much better off with a healthy pup vs the thousands that can be spent on a sickly or ill-breed animal.
Here in Canada we have small claims court where it wouldn't cost much to initate legals action. And if the pup died in your area - the claim would be filed in your area. The breeder would have to come to you to defend against it. I would go for broke - the cost, freight, and medical expenses.
The fact that he is giving you an time ultimatom to me is him trying to settle this before you realize your full legal options. SUE THE ******* .
[ July 04, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: doglover ]
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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goombaya
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posted July 04, 2004 02:39 PM
sambucca..
I resent the implication that I attacked Jena.
I did however provide her with the exact information she needs to present a legitimate case of nonperformance of her agreement with the breeder. My point was simple, the health certificate that was shipped with the puppy has a record of the puppies care, and a veteranarian point of contact..
This sounds like a better way to get to the bottom of this puppies health history than sending him misleading emails to entrap him as you propose..???
I would also say that imo opinion it was inappropriate to post his name here. Someone should send him an email and let him know whats being posted about him.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted July 04, 2004 03:04 PM
To Goombya- I agree that the buyer has some responsiblity in this issue (mainly by checking the breeder before getting pup) HOWEVER, I disagree that the name shouldn't be mentioned. After all, they directed us to a legitimate website that lists the infraction. If they had a good experience and posted recommendations - you'd have no problem with seeing the name.
The truth about business is this.... if you provide a product/service that fails to meet the minimum specifications (in terms of pets - live would be a minimum IMO) then you should be more than willing to give back the money. To me it appears that the dog lasted just over 1 week and from the post these people certainly tried to save the pup.
Whether or not the breeder is "suspect" is not the issue - The fact that he is not willing to stand behind his breeding is.
If he is listening - bite the bullet - give full refund and save face.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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ellierat
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posted July 04, 2004 03:31 PM
Goombaya, where is your compassion at this time?? There is no harm in displaying this mans name publicly, he already has done so himself by advertising on the internet, it has just been posted onto another site is all.
It is not Jena's fault that the pup needed to be flown, many people do this all the time, from Oz to overseas is quite common, some of my pups have been transported, but they were in darn good shape to handle it. In my case if you want a good dog sometimes you have to travel, we live miles and miles out in the country.
While everyones comments are valid, we don't have all the info, does she have papers? cause of death? written contract? these are important if Jena wants to pursue in a legal way.
If Jena has none of these I would go for the option of another puppy, with a written guarantee of health for at least a week, cause I doubt if this person would give any longer, and cut her losses on the rest of the money, this kind of thing happens all the time to unknowing people, not just with pups with other things as well.
Yes we should chase this man up, he gives genuine breeders of sound dogs a bad name. I for one would not hesitate to comment to him if I had proof myself, of his bad practices, how else are these people stopped. PUPPY MILLS they breed and breed those poor dogs, with no real life or love just for money. Don't get me started!!!
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I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
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sambucca/whiskey
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posted July 04, 2004 03:34 PM
The purpose is not entrapment lol. But maybe to find what guarantees he may offer when originally selling puppies. He does not seem to be willing to provide them with this. I really hope your not a breeder Goombaya. This souns like they were sent an unhealthy puppy, puppys are shipped to new homes all the time and live happy healthy live not 3 days to a week. I am just a regular dog owner and if this happened to me i would be sick with grief.
Posts: 246 | Registered: May 2004
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted July 04, 2004 03:58 PM
JENA - the website you direct us to uses "LICENSED" that means there is an agency somewhere controlling his license. Do you know who that is? Can you file a complaint?
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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sambucca/whiskey
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posted July 04, 2004 04:39 PM
Here it is. APHIS.Web@aphis.usda.gov
Posts: 246 | Registered: May 2004
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted July 04, 2004 06:44 PM
Ellierat - you as a breeder can probably testify to this better than I. BUT if I was a breeder and I thought you had neglected one of the puppies I sold you to the point of it's death, the devil would have icicles hanging from his nether region before I would sell/give you another one. So why would this breeder?
Jenna - I would get your Vet to issue a letter stating what in his professional opinion was the cause of death including any factors which may have contributed to it's death. A court of law would recognize his opinion even if the body was not autopized.
Gather up information off his website - statements like "ALL OUR DOGS ARE VET CERTIFIED", etc. Since this certificate obviously didn't occupany the dog (you had to get a list of shots), that would be a breach. Plus how would the vet be able to determine what animal he was certifying unless they are microchipped or tatooed.
File a complaint with the agency that issues his license. They can indepentantly investigate the current conditions of his kennels.
Even if you don't get your money back at least you can try to safeguard others like you in the future.
Goombaya - I doubt that the agency back in 2001 issued that statement based on a couple of uncleaned cages. And I also doubt that a so/so breeder suddenly changed his ways to be a good breeder. Even the pet store in the mall here has a three day guarantee on fish...
PS - In all the outrage we forgot to say we are sorry for your loss and pain. Our best wishes are with you at this time of loss.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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ellierat
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posted July 04, 2004 07:52 PM
Doglover, you are certainly right there. I would want to know what she had done to it, for it to die in 3 days. That is why I can't honestly say that Jena is to blame in this incidence, she would have had to have done something pretty drastic for it to die in 3 days.
The obvious that comes to mind is Parvo, but Jena would have no control over that.
You know what I am like though, I gave my last chocolate pup to that lady, remember, that is just me, but had that lady said the pup had just died in 3 days I would have definately questioned it, wanting vet reports etc, before offering any replacement.
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I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
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goombaya
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posted July 04, 2004 09:54 PM
Let me say this real clearly.
I am not defending the breeder.
I am not blaming Jena.
I said repeatedly that I was sorry for her having gone through this and I sincerely am. Thus the accusations of not demonstrating compassion are from left field.
Now, having said that allow me to defend myself.
Sambucca, I am a breeder.. and I do the best I can at it. And I'll say this right now, I wouldnt sell a puppy to anyone interested in "etailing" it. I don't run a puppy ebay and anyone interested in buying a puppy that way has automatically dq'd himself from my consideration.
Ellierat, I have shipped many dogs throughout the years. I just did it last month, and im about to bring one from europe. I know its done and i know how its done.. and I KNOW that you need a health certificate to do it.. and I know that you have to have current shots to get a health certificate.. this is the law. So Jena has her health information, and she has her proof, and she has a veternarian point of contact to follow up on this with. and what she's said about not having dt shots doesnt add up to me--I dont see how its possible. This is just one of the red flags that popped up to me inreading jena's original post.
And Ellierat, while I agree that Parvo is a suspect here, the stress on a 9 week old puppy, who hasnt been innoculated properely flying and than staying at the vets for days is equally suspect to me. I did ask Jena if the vet had provided her with a diagnosed cause of death.
Doglover, i recommend not posting the mans name because if jena is serious and wishes to proceed it is in her best interest to not do that. Her exposure in a court room would be very real. If the man has shipped a dog with a health cert, jena is going to have to prove the Vet that issued it was wrong.. pretty tough to do, even if she were to tell the judge that sambucca whiskey from the dog forum thinks he's a bad breeder.. i'd bet the judge would side with the vet... so its just smarter for jena to get her facts and not worsen her position.
Sorry to sound harsh but these are the facts when your dealing with a situation such as this.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2004
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jena
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posted July 04, 2004 10:21 PM
I only recieved a Nebraska Department Of Agriculture Bureau of anmial industry paper
official Small Anmial Health Certific owners name Tom Consignee My husbands name To be shipped Air is checked species canine 9wks male pom sable parti bottom has a vets name signed
hand written accumated 35 degrees-95 degrees In the section by dogs name date empty rabies tag number vaccanation other all left empty place issued Nebraska on 6/22/04 I had to call this man up and he told me the shots and worming the dog got in my original post.
Posts: 24 | From: Indiana | Registered: Jul 2004
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jena
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posted July 04, 2004 10:32 PM
we also ask where his papers were he told us they hadn't came back yet. No contracts nothing was sent. And goombaya we have never bought a puppie like this before we figured the breeder would have known if it was safe to ship a 1.2 pound puppy not like we do it everyday.we never blamed this man.we emailed him with questions about the puppy and he never got baack with us until 22 hrs later and then he treats us as if we neglected the puppy. she suspected parvo but was baffled that his sugar level was 398 for the shape he was in .
Posts: 24 | From: Indiana | Registered: Jul 2004
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jena
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posted July 05, 2004 01:15 AM
goombaya- I emailed this man and told him I was taking the puppy to vet to get him checked out for my own piece of mind and to have his matted eyes looked at and I needed to know all the shots he had so Vet would know and this is what he said in email.
He has been wormed twice with pyran50 -vaccinated 2 times Vanguard cpv plus
Done on 5/20 and then again on 6/10 I don't know what shots were required to send puppy if this has no distemper shot listed then he didn't get one. And as soon as I can find the Vet's number I will be calling him no phone number on paper.
2. As far as me posting his link just to let everyone else know... That was not his only complaint against him on that matter just found this out alittle to late.
3. We tried to talk to him about puppies health and he said we don't give refunds you have one week to decide to take a puppy of stronger status or not. The money isn't important
it's just the fact we got attached to this little guy and the breeder acts like he did blaming us. We didn't blame him cause if it were parvo it would have been no ones fault really
but as a breeder he should have been alittle more caring instead of accusing people. nothing will take the void in our hearts away for our puppy I am scared to death to get another puppy from this man but may be our only choice. We cant go thru this pain again.
Posts: 24 | From: Indiana | Registered: Jul 2004
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ellierat
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posted July 05, 2004 04:23 AM
Goombaya, I think our lines must be crossed a bit here, I am rereading the whole article, and have actually reread it once already.
First Point: I felt you were against flying the puppy, Your quote: "To fly your puppy (I can't say strongly enough what a bad idea that was)".
If it was such a bad idea why do you state to me later that you have done it many times and it's been ok for you, what was so wrong with Jena doing this.
Second Point: I felt a comment made by you was of an accusatory way, I certainly read it as such,
Your Quote: "You both flew the puppy, you both made the decision to fly the puppy".
This also making me feel you are against flying puppies.
Now, I don't think Jena has any proof, so far she has no papers only a shipping document as far as I can make out.
She has had to email for information of shots, she has no written and signed contract from this breeder, and I have no idea if she will ever get pedigree papers, as she says she is waiting for them. If the breeder has an attitute towards her and she has no contract, hopefully she has a receipt stating that this puppy is sold with papers, or she may not get them.
Surely you must have a canine registration body, or where would you get pedigree papers processed,
I don't know your process over there, but over here the first port of call would be there.
All this comes down to in the end is a civil case, it wouldn't matter whether the breeders name was posted on every street sign, if you have a solid case then you have a solid case, if you don't have the paperwork, then you don't have a leg to stand on. Not to mention you can have all the proof in the world but it can cost a small fortune to pursue it.
This post is probably getting a bit jumbled up, the point I'm trying to make is JENA you could take months to sort this out the legal way, end up soooo out of pocket with NO PUPPY for your troubles. My Advise, take the puppy he is offering.
IN COURT the judge may say to the breeder, did you offer a refund or any kind of replacement for the lost puppy....his reply YES. Where does it leave you????
Yes the prices may have changed, yes you lost the first puppy, the most you would probably get out of the breeder would be your vet costs for your lost puppy, and MAYBE some transport costs, but that would be after a long process.
Your best kind of retribution is to get this breeder struck off from any kind of breeding.
You are not the first to be caught like this and you probably won't be the last, I'm sorry to say.
Learn from this, don't make the same mistake, take another puppy while you can. Then pursue this A R S E H O L E the best you can.
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I love my labs.
Posts: 880 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2004
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goombaya
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posted July 05, 2004 06:56 AM
Ellierat, I am not against flying dogs - i prefer not to do it, but sometimes you have to.
I would not fly a 9 week old puppy, i would wait until it is older - prefer 12 weeks. And only after all of its shots. The temparatures are an issue at this time of year also, so its best to wait until its cooler out.
Jena has referred to the health cert. it has the vets name so she should call him and get whatever info he has on file including the weight of the dog when it visited his office.
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madjack
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posted July 05, 2004 09:10 AM
jena's hubby chiming in.
tough situation, for sure.
here's my feelings after putting myself in his position. (nutshell details)
breeder sends puppy. 3 days later he hears puppy dies. immediately, I guess, he's thinking I want a refund (he's right) BUT, in his mind, he sent us a puppy that was fine when he put it on the plane. he HAS to assume that there was some kind of neglect, right? so he tries to put me on the defensive by accusing me of neglect. ok, he'll send a puppy "of his choice", that he knows can handle the travel better) thinking we'll go for it and saving him money. we don't fall for it so he sends a notification that we have one week to make up our mind or case closed. he "does not give refunds". I explain to him that I don't WANT a puppy of his choice, that we shopped for over a month and we want a puppy that meets OUR requirements. I ask him (in email) to compromise because it's NOT going to be HIS way and it might not be MY way, we have to compromise because that's only fair. originally, when I first contacted him, I was inquiring about a female puppy he had but he kinda thought we would like the male better. he thought the male was closer to what we wanted after about a 1 hour phone conversation. so we went with the male.
I have to tell you that, in the next week, him and I didn't get along and started to dislike each other. it was BOTH of our faults. I didn't like the fact that he didn't answer his phones when I called and he didn't answer his emails in a timely manner. I started getting skeptical and he could feel the vibes. things didn't go smoothly because of the timing of everything and I did put a lot of pressure on him to deliver. thinking back, I guess he did about 75% of his best for us, which, for me isn't good enough for someone in the service business.
FINALLY, the puppy arrived, the puppy was great, we loved our new addition to the family and the DEAL WAS OVER. no more correspondence with this guy for me and I'm sure he felt the same way. RELIEF that the deal was done and over with. NOT TO BE!
then we had the unfortunate, fluke thing happen as described by my wife above.
now I have to deal with this guy again and he has to deal with me again and we really dislike each other, much of was brought about because of my impatience with him. and now we're back to square one and neither one of us wants to give in to the other. we're BOTH mad and sad at the same time but it has to be handled and we don't want to deal with each other. UGH!
I pretty much explained this in my last email to him. I told him that we had to compromise and that he had a certain puppy that I originally inquired about and I would ONLY take that puppy and I was reluctant to do that. 24 more hours go by with no reply and then he did get back and agreed to send that puppy that I wanted but he was definitely going to wait until she reached a minimum of 2 pounds before sending her. he would email me one week prior to shipping. WOW, i would have bet anything that he was going to tell us it was sold. good for him!
we really want the puppy he sent, the one we had, but unfortunately the fluke occurred and we have nothing. realistically, it was nobody's fault. it was a freak thing that happened that nobody, including the vet, can explain. he also is going to take a loss by sending us the puppy we originally wanted, thus taking a loss himself. he only asks that we pay $125 of the shipping charges.
after thinking this through, in my mind, for the last 24 hours, I think it's a fair compromise and we should take his offer. I bent and he bent, we both lose but we both gain something back. us, a puppy, him, a happy customer.
what does everybody think about this now? I still haven't indicated to him that I would take the new offer.
no, the guy isn't the perfect breeder. no, he doesn't do business like the better breeders do. he doesn't cross his t's and dot his i's but that's my fault for not checking him out better BEFORE I sent him my money.
if he's telling the truth, he works full time and goes to night school (the reason he doesn't communicate better with his 'side-business' customers) so doesn't have time as he would if he ran this business full time. the time for better vet documents to send to his customers, the time to drive an hour to the airport to ship puppies when the CUSTOMER wants, the time to have his puppies registered so he can send papers when the puppy is shipped, the time to do things THE RIGHT WAY. again, my fault for not checking him out better but I'm stuck with him now.
do we take him up on the offer?
thanks, in advance for your time.
Jack
whew, some nutshell, huh? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2004
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DaxAriel's toy
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posted July 05, 2004 09:42 AM
Cross your fingers & take the offer. It's the best you can hope for.
Posts: 748 | From: Edmonton AB Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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