White shepherds

[rutylr]

Wow then theres hope for other mixed breed dogs to register with UKC and become CH's.

[Laurelin]

I don't think that's a bad thing though. It wasn't like the UKC doesn't realize pointer was added in or that pointer was snuck in. It was a deliberate cross and they're 30+ years away from that cross (to one pointer). Some breeds really do need to outcross.

[Ceph]

Originally Posted by RebelMoonGSDs

right, you can breed to any dog in the country/world...but if you breed white to white ONLY, to white to white ONLY, eventually you limit the gene pool. Instead of say, breeding a white to a black and tan who carries white, if that makes sense?

That's kind of like saying breeding a GSD to a GSD only, to GSD to GSD only, eventually you limit the gene pool. It's absolutely true...but you can't just say it about the whites...you have to say it about them all. (PS...I should mention I fully support a breeding system like what the German Warmbloods use in order to promote working dogs...but I dont think dog folks have enough horse sense.)

White (German/Swiss) Shepherds are sort of odd ducks. Like Newbie said, the wGSDs resemble showlines..though are frequently less extreme in both the back and the rear. WSDs and WSSDs both have standards that push away from rear and back extremes, which is while you'll generally see better angulation than most of the showlines in the rear (lol, IMO...probably not other peoples). Like in the GSD you'll find some dogs that have no drive and some that are super drivey, some that have good nerves and some that are bad...some that are bred for show and some that are bred for work. Like with buying a GSD you have to do alot of research on the breeders and the lines. I also think like the GSD the number of good dogs (as far as working goes) is far outweighed by the number of bad dogs.

There are many WSDs titled in SchH and FR overseas...you dont see it as much here....dogs tend to orient towards herding here in the US.

Saying that the WSDs are only bred for looks and show and that's the reason they have no drive is like saying the GSDs are generaly bred for looks and show and that's the reason the malinois are kicking their butt's in working It's partially true -- but only a piece of the puzzle...there are many good GSDs out there, just like there are also good whites. Borad generalizations show an ignorance of the breed, the breeders and the lines, which are as varied in the whites as they are in any other working breed.

~Cate

[RebelMoonGSDs]

Originally Posted by Ceph

That's kind of like saying breeding a GSD to a GSD only, to GSD to GSD only, eventually you limit the gene pool. It's absolutely true...but you can't just say it about the whites...you have to say it about them all. (PS...I should mention I fully support a breeding system like what the German Warmbloods use in order to promote working dogs...but I dont think dog folks have enough horse sense.)

White (German/Swiss) Shepherds are sort of odd ducks. Like Newbie said, the wGSDs resemble showlines..though are frequently less extreme in both the back and the rear. WSDs and WSSDs both have standards that push away from rear and back extremes, which is while you'll generally see better angulation than most of the showlines in the rear (lol, IMO...probably not other peoples). Like in the GSD you'll find some dogs that have no drive and some that are super drivey, some that have good nerves and some that are bad...some that are bred for show and some that are bred for work. Like with buying a GSD you have to do alot of research on the breeders and the lines. I also think like the GSD the number of good dogs (as far as working goes) is far outweighed by the number of bad dogs.

There are many WSDs titled in SchH and FR overseas...you dont see it as much here....dogs tend to orient towards herding here in the US.

Saying that the WSDs are only bred for looks and show and that's the reason they have no drive is like saying the GSDs are generaly bred for looks and show and that's the reason the malinois are kicking their butt's in working It's partially true -- but only a piece of the puzzle...there are many good GSDs out there, just like there are also good whites. Broad generalizations show an ignorance of the breed, the breeders and the lines, which are as varied in the whites as they are in any other working breed.

~Cate

Awesome post Cate, and I agree 100% with everything you said. And yes, not many dog people do have enough horse sense, but then agian, even some breeds of horse in the equine world are going the way of the GSD! (sad face).

I also wonder if the reason we see more WGSDs/GSDs in general in the USA being titled in herding as opposed to SChH/FR and all those other working/performance titles is because they are not as well advertised in this country, or are less accessible? I am going to start a new thread on this topic, I think.

What I meant by breeding white only to white only, will make the breeding pool smaller, faster (as opposed to utilizing the entirety of the GSD and WGSD gene pool to keep things "Fresh" even if it doesn't mean you always get a WGSD pup or pure white litter). Does that make any more sense? I meant to express more about how fast the genes get to be very close. I can't seem to break it down to exactly what I mean any better than that. And I'm not saying (and haven't meant to imply) that ALL WGSD breeders do this or are bad breeders, just saying that in my experience, the fanatical "only pure white to pure white is a REAL WGSD", color-crazy breeders are doing this.

I guess it all comes down to this, as with any breed:

1) the quality of the breeder
2) the character/quality of the dogs bred

Those two things I think everyone can agree on!

[Ceph]

Thanks I know you werent implying anything about all WSD breeders...but others were and I thought that it was important to raise some points about that.

I actually am really feeling you on your post right now...LOL. I've been a back and forth conversation with a European breeder who happens to be fanatical...so fanatical in fact that he feels that the whites bred in the US are mongrels...never you mind that the whites in Europe would not exist without lines from the US (as well as those from England and Australia).

I've been doing alot of thinking with the whites...and I think that if people were a little less fanatical about certain things like paper most breeds would be better off. I personally dont see the problem with any breed bringing in a dog that essentially meets their stanard in all ways minus a cosmetic fault...like color. I'm a bit of a nut in that I think it would be beneficial to most working bred dogs -- especially the shepherd breeds who have five or so different breeds that all structurally and functionally resemble each other.

It's something I am really liking about the Dutch breeders right now -- the working breeders have generally stopped caring about paperwork in all ways except for health -- and as a result breed a dog based not on it's ancestry but it's merit. There are many mixed breed dogs and dogs of generally weird origin coming out of the country...but the general concensus is that the dogs are REALLY good.

~Cate

[Maliraptor]

Originally Posted by Ceph

It's something I am really liking about the Dutch breeders right now -- the working breeders have generally stopped caring about paperwork in all ways except for health -- and as a result breed a dog based not on it's ancestry but it's merit. There are many mixed breed dogs and dogs of generally weird origin coming out of the country...but the general concensus is that the dogs are REALLY good.

~Cate

Why I like the Malinois. I can name some top Malinois that are actually Mal x's that found papers. Unethical, sure, you lose the real pedigree. Good for the breed? I think so. If the dog is working and performing and a TOP dog, it finds papers. It gets bred.

When I first started with this breed I thought it was horrible. I refused a nice puppy because his grandmother was not really who was on his papers. Now, it doesnt bother me. Show me the first few generations in person. Show me real working ability and health. Thats enough for me.

[Ceph]

Originally Posted by Maliraptor

Why I like the Malinois. I can name some top Malinois that are actually Mal x's that found papers. Unethical, sure, you lose the real pedigree. Good for the breed? I think so. If the dog is working and performing and a TOP dog, it finds papers. It gets bred.

When I first started with this breed I thought it was horrible. I refused a nice puppy because his grandmother was not really who was on his papers. Now, it doesnt bother me. Show me the first few generations in person. Show me real working ability and health. Thats enough for me.

I feel the same way. Can you imagine though if there was a stock organization for the Malinois or the GSD or the WSD that kept a record of all that? That way the real pedigree wouldnt be lost. A dog could be brought in to the stock registry and approved for a particular breed. It's progeny could then be bred...and two or three generations down the road, when the paper looks shiney enough for the breed registry, the stock papers turn into full papers.

I love it. I wish I could start something like this...and I actually tried...but I dont think anyone was really interested.

~Cate

[Cali]

like an ROM in working BCs, our working registrys have a program to do exactly that, and ROM, an unregistered dog or a dog of unknown ancestry can get full recignition as a purbred BC simpley by proving their merit. oddly enugh since these working registrys on are AKCs acceptable list, you can prove the worth of an unknown dog acheiving a register on merit, then use those papers to regsister the same dog with AKC

[GSDtrent]

White colored German shepherds are nice dogs, haven't yet met one I didn't like. In fact, haven't met one that didn't act any different from the other North American show line German shepherds I know. They're really just German shepherds, but with a white coat. Many lack drive, but many black/tans in the AKC show ring also lack drive. There are many white colored German shepherds that have titles in conformation as well as herding and/or agility.

I don't have a problem with white colored German shepherds. I think structure is more important and above that, temperament, health, and drive. If a breeder shows and breeds under the UKC, there is absolutely no reason why a white colored or white factored German shepherd should not be bred, as long as he/she is proven to be worthy of breeding and truly has something to add to the breed itself. I don't think white German shepherds are their own line... they are a color that North American show line German shepherds come in, and a color that may be controversial and specifically well loved, but the responsible breeders I know will tell you that they are German shepherd breeders preserving the white color, and that they still show their sables, bi-colors, black and tans in the AKC or UKC show ring.

White Shepherds, on the other hand, I am a bit critical of. I wish someone would let me know why they want them to be their own line, and whether or not there is any difference when it comes to temperament, as I already know there is a difference in the standard for structural conformation.

[Aescleah]

well GSDs are sorta growing on me there is a very good chance i will get another one and i like the white ones alot i like the blacks sables and the whites
i think a big reason why breeders want there own registry and pardon me if i am wrong i am not a breeder and can not speak for them but there are some very strong feelings about what the standards are and WGSDs are not welcome

but i also like to root for the under dog lol in this case literally

Ashley