My Philosophy on Border Collies..

[agilitydog]

Originally Posted by circle c

You're right...they are supposed to be the same... BUT, they never will be and that is something we all just have to live with

And these types of attitudes are the reasons why overpopulation will never be solved

[circle c]

Originally Posted by agilitydog

And these types of attitudes are the reasons why overpopulation will never be solved

Oh please....

Its called realization ppl!

Its the same in the horse world. People are going to breed what they want to breed.... halter horses are IMO completely worthless as are "show" type BC's.... but, ppl continue to breed what wins in the show pen, whether the next person finds them worthless or not. A halter person would find my barrel horse worthless too.... maybe they dont want to ride their horses... maybe they like the "from the ground " showing and looking at them in the pasture... who am I to tell them thats wrong? Maybe this person has no interest in herding.... they want to show confo... so they breed dogs that are winning int he confo class.... who am I to say that its wrong? Take it up with all the judges that are placing the "winning" animals... THEN maybe ppl will wake up and smell the roses. I dont see that happening any time soon if ever.

[agilitydog]

Originally Posted by circle c

Maybe this person has no interest in herding.... they want to show confo... so they breed dogs that are winning int he confo class.... who am I to say that its wrong? Take it up with all the judges that are placing the "winning" animals...

Well, there are many new rules in place that have been in place in other countries.

Labs for example, recently just added(here in the US) that a dog in the conformation CANNOT add the CH(champion) in front of their name until they have a working title. Not much good showing in conformation only will do ya if you are looking for that CH. This has been a rule in other countries for a while.

So there are steps being taken to get people back to having a dual purpose dog. Will it happen overnight, no, but it is a step,

[bdrcol22]

Originally Posted by circle c

Oh please....

Its called realization ppl!

Its the same in the horse world. People are going to breed what they want to breed.... halter horses are IMO completely worthless as are "show" type BC's.... but, ppl continue to breed what wins in the show pen, whether the next person finds them worthless or not. A halter person would find my barrel horse worthless too.... maybe they dont want to ride their horses... maybe they like the "from the ground " showing and looking at them in the pasture... who am I to tell them thats wrong? Maybe this person has no interest in herding.... they want to show confo... so they breed dogs that are winning int he confo class.... who am I to say that its wrong? Take it up with all the judges that are placing the "winning" animals... THEN maybe ppl will wake up and smell the roses. I dont see that happening any time soon if ever.

I am not going to start this war up too much again... But one thing I don't appreciate is my dogs being called worthless... Yep.. I have "show" BCs....
Here is a list of their titles...

UGRACH2 UCDX V Darkwinds Dizzy Miss Lizzy HT CDX RE OA MXJ XF EAC O-ECC O-OCC O-EJC S-TN-E O-WV-E TG-O CGC Open Versatility 1000 Lifetime Point Award(Lizzy-BC)

UACHX Rav'nleigh's Seize the Day CD RE MX MXJ MXF O-EAC EJC ECC S-TN-E S-WV-E O-TG-E HP-N Elite Versatility, 1000 Lifetime Point Award, 2010 AKC Nationals Qualifier, 2009 NADAC Championships Qualifier (Devlin-BC on the road to MACH, NATCH & GRACH !)

UAGII Terbo Knew Her As Nancy of Rav'nleigh NA OAJ NF OAC EJC NCC TN-E TG-N WV-E Novice Versatility(Lil-BC in Training) --She has 3 points and 2 BOB wins with limited breed ring showing.

Centaurea's Rainy Day Remedy (Remi-Baby BC)-- I have only been training her for 3 months...It will come.

Devlin is 3 Double Qs from his MACH, 2 legs from his GRACH and 3 Jumpers/4 Chances legs from his NATCH/Versatility NATCH. He needs 3 legs for his RAE, and we are starting (tomorrow) to show for our CDX and are training for Utility. He is also learning to track. He has been on sheep, and is very good.
Lizzy is also trained on sheep-- I am not even going to start to "defend" my position as why I don't do more herding.. I live in the 'burbs of Chicago.
And most importantly, they are my best friends.

These are strictly showline BCs... Worthless, are they??

[Lizaveta]

I'm still going through this thread, it's very interesting. I have a question, though: I've seen this type of debate about BCs spring up several times on various forums. I'm curious as to why people bring up this particular topic about Border Collies and not other working breeds? Maybe I just haven't ran across a discussion about this in regards to a breed like the ACD or other dogs who have a specific working purpose, but does this argument not apply to any them?

And all of this talk about not being able to do herding in urban areas as much as people wish they could and things...if you're breeding to better the breed and recognize that you need to actually work stock with your dog and also recognize that you aren't able to do that, why are you breeding border collies? How is it bettering the breed? Someone also mentioned Rottweilers and how you can't exactly have your dogs prove themselves in draught ability. I always hear breeders talking about how purebreds were bred for a purpose, that's why only purebred dogs should be bred - because they're here for a reason and were bred for years and years for specific traits. So if there's no job for them to do anymore, why are they still being bred? If it sounds like I'm trying to star an argument I'm not; I'm genuinely curious as to the purpose of breeding dogs if their jobs are now obsolete.

[bdrcol22]

Originally Posted by Lizaveta

I'm still going through this thread, it's very interesting. I have a question, though: I've seen this type of debate about BCs spring up several times on various forums. I'm curious as to why people bring up this particular topic about Border Collies and not other working breeds? Maybe I just haven't ran across a discussion about this in regards to a breed like the ACD or other dogs who have a specific working purpose, but does this argument not apply to any them?

And all of this talk about not being able to do herding in urban areas as much as people wish they could and things...if you're breeding to better the breed and recognize that you need to actually work stock with your dog and also recognize that you aren't able to do that, why are you breeding border collies? How is it bettering the breed? Someone also mentioned Rottweilers and how you can't exactly have your dogs prove themselves in draught ability. I always hear breeders talking about how purebreds were bred for a purpose, that's why only purebred dogs should be bred - because they're here for a reason and were bred for years and years for specific traits. So if there's no job for them to do anymore, why are they still being bred? If it sounds like I'm trying to star an argument I'm not; I'm genuinely curious as to the purpose of breeding dogs if their jobs are now obsolete.

So because I live in a more urban environment, I am not allowed to try to better a breed I am passionate about? It is hard to find the amount of stock that many "working" BC people deem appropriate. I try my best and test my dogs on sheep. I am however, VERY active in multiple other dog sports, I health test, and I am very concerned about the corralation of correct structure and working. I guess this is where I will agree that I will do what I want. I love this breed. I can't imagine ever owning anything but, and I do enjoy breeding on a small scale. (I have two litters planned over the next 2 or so years). I will not NOT be active with the breed of MY choice due to location restrictions. If I could by a 100 acre farm and work sheep all day, I would... But then there is a thing called life.

[Lizaveta]

Originally Posted by bdrcol22

So because I live in a more urban environment, I am not allowed to try to better a breed I am passionate about?

Why are you trying to make it out like I was attacking you? I never once addressed you in my previous post, nor did I ever try to dictate what you're allowed or not allowed to do. Geez, some people are so aggressive, as I said I was asking a question because I was curious.

It is hard to find the amount of stock that many "working" BC people deem appropriate. I try my best and test my dogs on sheep. I am however, VERY active in multiple other dog sports, I health test, and I am very concerned about the correlation of correct structure and working.

I totally get that some people think that health testing and doing dog sports is enough. I'm not a breeder, nor do I want to be, and am not saying that it isn't enough because I don't know enough on the subject - that's why I'm asking questions based on my initial thoughts from what I'm learning and reading. I just remember it being mentioned not just on this forum, but on another forums with similar debates, that even the breeders recognize that they don't have access to the type of environment for the working dogs they're breeding that they should. If they recognize that they SHOULD have a better environment to breed them and don't have it, how can they then say that they're bettering the breed when they're knowingly not able to breed "proven" dogs and even agree that they can't do this in the type of environment they live in?

I guess this is where I will agree that I will do what I want. I love this breed. I can't imagine ever owning anything but, and I do enjoy breeding on a small scale. (I have two litters planned over the next 2 or so years). I will not NOT be active with the breed of MY choice due to location restrictions. If I could by a 100 acre farm and work sheep all day, I would... But then there is a thing called life.

I totally understand. So then, breeders don't just breed to "better the breed", but also because personally they feel they gain enjoyment and fulfillment from breeding a breed they love, right?

[bdrcol22]

Originally Posted by Lizaveta

Why are you trying to make it out like I was attacking you? I never once addressed you in my previous post, nor did I ever try to dictate what you're allowed or not allowed to do. Geez, some people are so aggressive, as I said I was asking a question
because I was curious.

I totally get that some people think that health testing and doing dog sports is enough. I'm not a breeder, nor do I want to be, and am not saying that it isn't enough because I don't know enough on the subject - that's why I'm asking questions based on my initial thoughts from what I'm learning and reading. I just remember it being mentioned not just on this forum, but on another forums with similar debates, that even the breeders recognize that they don't have access to the type of environment for the working dogs they're breeding that they should. If they recognize that they SHOULD have a better environment to breed them and don't have it, how can they then say that they're bettering the breed when they're knowingly not able to breed "proven" dogs and even agree that they can't do this in the type of environment they live in?

I totally understand. So then, breeders don't just breed to "better the breed", but also because personally they feel they gain enjoyment and fulfillment from breeding a breed they love, right?

Right... Sorry to come across the way I did, it just happens to be a topic that I am very passionate about.
And there are many who feel that if you can't work your dog on a 100 head of sheep every day, you are not worthy of breeding them. I have been actively involved in BCs for 14 years... And there is no other breed I can imagine spending my time with.

[Lizaveta]

Originally Posted by bdrcol22

Right... Sorry to come across the way I did, it just happens to be a topic that I am very passionate about.
And there are many who feel that if you can't work your dog on a 100 head of sheep every day, you are not worthy of breeding them. I have been actively involved in BCs for 14 years... And there is no other breed I can imagine spending my time with.

Thanks, and I didn't mean for my post to offend you or anyone if it did.

[circle c]

Originally Posted by bdrcol22

I am not going to start this war up too much again... But one thing I don't appreciate is my dogs being called worthless... Yep.. I have "show" BCs....

I have my own opinions just like you. I stated mine... it was not a personal attack on you... I also stated in my post that:

Originally Posted by circle c

That champ halter horse very rarely is going to hold up physically or mentally to the demands of barrel racing (of course this is not 100% of the time as there are those that accomplish the impossible). The same is true with dogs... one that is bred for and is "conformationally correct" for a comformation class probably isn't going to hold up as a working dog and probably isn't going to acomplish as much as one that is bred to work (again, this is not 100%).