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Thread: Cesar Millan... Abuse?

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Espencer85 View Post
    Aggression out of dominance its a totally different ball game than aggression out of fear, lack of socialization, etc. Aggression out of dominance is fuel by confidence. Get yourself a real dominant Malamute that will not think twice on take you down if you mess with his dominant drive towards other dogs. Then you come back here and we will compare notes.
    I find this a very interesting statement and would like a better explanation or distinction between instintual based behavior such as protection, herding, seeking, etc., and if I understand Espencer's, instinctual base behavior also includes a dominant personality, a highly confident dog. It seems to me that instinctual base behavior and personality (temperament) base behavior are on different plains.

    I ask this cause I think it will helpful with my current foster, a GSD mix, that gets along with other dogs if properly introduced, acclimated, conditioned, to other dogs. In the absence of prep work, the GSD mix is aggressive, growls, barks, lunges, and if close enough, will nip the other dog. I don't think this is fear base or lack of socialization, but instinctual base behavior, protection. In curbing this behavior, changing the threshold degree reaction while not effecting the drive, corrections are used. If I am wrong and misdiagnosed the situation and it is really fear based, then by correcting, I escalate the problem.

    I also want to add that the below picture showing a Bullmastiff posturing over a hound mix can have different interpretations. Both Espencer and Ouesi have commented on the posturing while one interprets the posturing as a play invite and the other says its rude behavior. Whats good about this example is the Bullmastiff breed description calls this a dominant breed and its temperament is apprehensive toward other dogs

    Last edited by DPU; 06-04-2012 at 04:19 AM.

  2. #82
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    DPU, if youíre going to bring up a post I made on another forum over 3 years ago, at least get it right. I never said the dogís posture indicated play invite. I simply disagreed with your interpretation that the dog was being menacing.

    Describing a breed as ďdominantĒ is in my understanding an incorrect use of the term. Dominance is a descriptor of a relationship, not of temperament.

    Dr. Sophia Yin:
    In the last several decades field scientists have made many new discoveries about dominance hierarchies. Individual researchers and research groups have each spent hundreds to thousands of hours observing interactions between members in groups and relating the interactions to rank. These studies have spanned many species including macaques, chimpanzees, vervets, baboons, lions, wolves, meerkats, chickens, cattle, goats, and more. Here's some of what we have learned about hierarchies from all of the research.
    1. Dominance is not a personality trait. If you take four individuals, each who is the highest ranked member of its group and put them together in a new group, they will fight and establish a rank order of 1-4 between them. Thus only one of the individuals who was ranked highest in its own group will have highest rank now...
    Journal of Veterinary Behavior (peer reviewed article)
    John Bradshaw, Emily Blackwell, Rachael Casey
    Although dominance is correctly a property of relationships, it has been erroneously used to describe a supposed trait of individual dogs, even though there is little evidence that such a trait exists.
    You can also use dominance to describe certain behaviors in animals, but again the behavior (whether dominant or submissive) does not define the individual. Dogs are far more complex and their form of communication far more intricate than a dominant/submissive dichotomy could even begin to encompass. Much of how dogs behave has absolutely nothing to do with dominance or submission.

    Roger Abrantes:
    Dominant behavior is a quantitative and quantifiable behavior displayed by an individual with the function of gaining or maintaining temporary access to a particular resource on a particular occasion, versus a particular opponent, without either party incurring injury. If any of the parties incur injury, then the behavior is aggressive and not dominant. Its quantitative characteristics range from slightly self-confident to overtly assertive.

    Dominant behavior is situational, individual and resource related. One individual displaying dominant behavior in one specific situation does not necessarily show it on another occasion toward another individual, or toward the same individual in another situation.
    Certain dogs are temperamentally more pushy, obnoxious, overt in their displays than others. Definitely bully breeds fall under this umbrella. Anyone who has any experience with these dogs will recognize the bullmastiffís posture.
    One of my own dogs will usually follow a stance like that with a muzzle punch. What happens after the muzzle punch will depend on the other dog. It can turn in to a snark, it can turn in to a fight, it can turn in to play, it can turn in to both dogs ignoring each other.
    But without further context, you canít label this behavior the bullmastiff is displaying as dominant.


    These conversations always frustrate me because people who actually study these things using proper scientific inquiry have established definitions of the terms.
    When we donít agree to use proper, agreed upon definitions, its like trying to have a meaningful conversation in spanglish with someone who doesnít speak Spanish. Yeah, there will be some overlap of terms but there will also be huge misunderstandings. In Spanish ďmolestarĒ means to bother, or annoy, as it does in English, just a very specific type of bothering. If you accuse someone in English of molesting you - meaning the Spanish term - thereís going to be a major misunderstanding. I feel like these conversations operate essentially the same way.
    "Until one has loved an animal, part of one's soul remains unawakened."
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    How people treat you is their Karma, how you react is yours.

  3. #83
    Nothing wrong with expressing an interpretation of the Bullmastiff's posture but having breed knowledge and having breed experience makes the interpretation count more.

    There is nothing wrong with using the word dominance in descripting the structure of a social group, an old dispelled theory, as well as using dominance to describe a dog's mental attitude or approach to other living things. It is well understood by most in the English language. Although, I do believe the former to be a human construct and the nonlinear dog to be the true dog structure.

    When a breed descriptions uses the word dominant in describing the dog's temperament, as is done with Bullmastiffs, my understanding and experience is the dog is not willing to submit to another's control. This does not mean the dog won't get along with other dogs. By nature, dogs are suppose to avoid conflict. When the breed description describes the dogs as apprehensive to other dogs, as with the Bullmastiffs, my understanding and experience will be a personality that is "pushy obnoxious and overt in their displays", as shown in the picture I presented.

    CM uses the word dominance to describe dogs in a hierachy structures as well as the dog's temperament, both indeed impact the relationship. And remember temperament is inherited as well as shaped by the dog's life experiences.

    Anyway, this does not help my foster GSD and me trying to discern the correct approach to use in dealing with an instinctual behavior versus a temperament behavior.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPU View Post
    Nothing wrong with expressing an interpretation of the Bullmastiff's posture but having breed knowledge and having breed experience makes the interpretation count more.

    There is nothing wrong with using the word dominance in descripting the structure of a social group, an old dispelled theory, as well as using dominance to describe a dog's mental attitude or approach to other living things. It is well understood by most in the English language. Although, I do believe the former to be a human construct and the nonlinear dog to be the true dog structure.

    When a breed descriptions uses the word dominant in describing the dog's temperament, as is done with Bullmastiffs, my understanding and experience is the dog is not willing to submit to another's control. This does not mean the dog won't get along with other dogs. By nature, dogs are suppose to avoid conflict. When the breed description describes the dogs as apprehensive to other dogs, as with the Bullmastiffs, my understanding and experience will be a personality that is "pushy obnoxious and overt in their displays", as shown in the picture I presented.

    CM uses the word dominance to describe dogs in a hierachy structures as well as the dog's temperament, both indeed impact the relationship. And remember temperament is inherited as well as shaped by the dog's life experiences.

    Anyway, this does not help my foster GSD and me trying to discern the correct approach to use in dealing with an instinctual behavior versus a temperament behavior.
    Now youíre joining espencer in saying my opinion lacks validity? Why bother responding to anything I post if my opinion holds such little weight with you?

    Now add in that none of this helps you figure out what to do with your GSD foster?
    If you want help with your GSD foster, perhaps starting a new thread would be more fruitful than posting a picture of a bullmastiff and a hound?

    I still stand by my assertion that these discussions of dominance are worthless unless we can agree on a definition of the term. At the risk of sounding condescending, I have no desire to try to discuss something like dog behavior using colloquial, and ever-changing definitions. Iíll stick to that which has already been agreed upon by those far more knowledgeable and experienced than me rather than trying to come up with a definition that suits my own needs at the moment.

    Not that you care about my opinion, but if you feel the dog is acting on protective instincts, (which I donít know that he is), then I suggest you contact a GOOD protection sport person who can help you put the behavior on cue, the idea being that the protective behavior should not happen unless the dog is specifically cued to do it. Just an idea...
    "Until one has loved an animal, part of one's soul remains unawakened."
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    How people treat you is their Karma, how you react is yours.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by ouesi View Post
    Certain dogs are temperamentally more pushy, obnoxious, overt in their displays than others. Definitely bully breeds fall under this umbrella. Anyone who has any experience with these dogs will recognize the bullmastiff’s posture.
    Ouesi, I was merely agreeing with your quote.

    Please, train without ego, post without ego. This discussion is not about your ego or a petty obsession with terms. If you are frustrated, then don't post.

    My original post in this thread was directed at Espencer and I was hoping for a response from him that would be helpful with a current situation with my foster GSD. I am willing to try a CM approach in an effort to curb the GSD's behavior but of course I also want an understanding of why it works, hence my interest to know the best approach to use to curb instinctual behavior versus temperament behavior, CM style.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPU View Post
    Please, train without ego, post without ego. This discussion is not about your ego or a petty obsession with terms. If you are frustrated, then don't post.
    HEY! Tchsst!!!


    Thatís me snapping you out of your dominant state. Donít you feel better now?
    "Until one has loved an animal, part of one's soul remains unawakened."
    ~Anatole France

    How people treat you is their Karma, how you react is yours.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by ouesi View Post
    HEY! Tchsst!!!


    Thatís me snapping you out of your dominant state. Donít you feel better now?
    You can have the last word, thats ok if it satisfies your obsessive drive, I understand.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPU View Post
    /snip
    I also want to add that the below picture showing a Bullmastiff posturing over a hound mix can have different interpretations. Both Espencer and Ouesi have commented on the posturing while one interprets the posturing as a play invite and the other says its rude behavior. Whats good about this example is the Bullmastiff breed description calls this a dominant breed and its temperament is apprehensive toward other dogs

    One picture, one nanosecond time is very hard to label.

    I say this because I probably have hundreds of pictures of Hades doing just this.

    Sometimes he absolutely is engaging in play with a dog that doesn't want to. I call Hades socially "retarded" (excuse my lack of political correctness). He is terrible at reading other dogs cues, and he just wants to play. He plays rough and he plays hard and what that hound is doing is something I've seen other dogs do a thousand times to Hades. He's a clingy freak on steroids, 'roid raging, almost rapey, and some happy go lucky dogs take to this 110% let's play, plays' awesome, and other dogs don't.

    Hades is in no way *meaning to be* menacing when he does this, he's excited and he's basically stupid. Could it be interpreted by a dog as menacing, definitely, but not all dogs would interpret this behaviour the same as I've experienced, and even if a dog interprets a behaviour the same way, let's just say menacing, each dogs' reaction will be different.

    Roxy would freeze if Hades forgot his wits and did this to her. If he continued she would escalate and correct him.

    Rusty, does it back to him and they play rough.

    A smaller dog that was at my house, tried to get away, and when he couldn't he lashed out. FWIW Hades did not retalitate, he simply froze, took a few teency punctures to the neck and continued, until the other dog stopped being weird, relaxed, and didn't growl whenever Hades went near his "bitch". A menacing dog, would likely immediately put another dog down for doing this, no?

    Another dog I was watching at my house, was like; Wahoooo! And would vertical in the air and scramble on top of his back and rip around before wrestling together.

    So you are absolutely going to hear different opinions from PEOPLE about what that picture says, because IMO, dogs wouldn't exactly be in agreement either!
    Roxys' life motto: Me!
    Hades' life motto: Ball!

  9. #89
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    Now counter conditioning.

    Unless you've done it, it's very hard to explain the true power of conditioning PROPERLY.

    To properly condition you have to be very observant, you have to know exactly what a dog's triggers are and start conditioning a response well below it. You have to be creative in finding ways to break the situation down into pieces, address each piece, work it into the ground and proof it before putting everything together, messing around with it, then putting it into action.

    It's a long in type process, but often "hard" dogs can move through it very quickly with a handler that is spot on with their timing/marking and is able to read a dog's intentions before they're even aware of what their intentions are. Basically someone whose well versed in conditioning can read a dogs' mind! Ha ha.

    Hades has a few most awesome things in the world, all of which involve prey drive, because he's got tons. I'm sure Hades would enjoy chasing the bunny in the field. Heck, I let him a lot of the time because I seriously doubt he'll catch it and its a great work out, but sometimes I don't want him to, I call him, he comes. Why? It's not because me saying "Yes! Good boy!" is better, though I'd like to think that, it's because that's what proper conditioning is.

    Conditioning the appropriate responses. Applying the right methods effectively rules out the need to have a; Why should I? The answer is obvious, you should because it benefits you, and then you do, because that's what you've always done.

    Dogs that are truly DA can be trained to behave in the presence of other dogs, dogs that's intention is to KILL other dogs, not correct them. Conditioning is a powerful tool, stringing a dog up and engaging in a 10 minute war that results in a dog quietly lying and awaiting its own death whenever it reacts like that, is a form of conditioning, just not a good one.
    Roxys' life motto: Me!
    Hades' life motto: Ball!

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond View Post
    One picture, one nanosecond time is very hard to label.
    And I stated it as such, many interpretation just as Espencer says one is going see what one wants to see in the CM video, or something like that.

    For me, I think the Hound's opinion is the one that counts most.

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